Will AI Replace Musicians? (Dawn in the Dark)
Independent rock band Dawn in the Dark shares how learning guitar by rewinding cassette tapes in Pakistan evolved into a global music career and a nonprofit community for South Asian guitarists. We also discuss adapting to AI in today's music industry.
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Transcript:
Mike:
Hey Heather, hey KW. How’s it going?
Heather:
Hey there. Hey Mike. All’s good, all’s well. It’s been an interesting Friday, I would say. Thanks for having us.
Mike:
Oh really? Interesting Friday? Anything you can say on the show?
Heather:
No, nothing crazy. I just went to Trader Joe’s and instead of buying what I was supposed to buy, I bought a lot of other stuff and got a little bit of a spanking for it. So yes—too many snacks for the weekend.
Mike:
Fair enough, fair enough. I’m the same way. I’m the best and the worst shopper at the same time. I don’t like to browse, but I definitely get things I wasn’t intending to buy. I go in on a mission and somehow get distracted along the way.
Heather:
You understand. You’re walking by and think, “Oh, that looks interesting,” and it just goes in the cart.
Mike:
Exactly. So it’s interesting because both of you have quite a background in music. Heather, I’d like to start with you. I noticed you started in choir at an early age.
Heather:
Right. I was in church quite a bit growing up, so that was a natural progression. I enjoyed musicals as a kid and had a lot of theater opportunities in middle school and high school. I really enjoyed singing with groups—the synergy, the dynamics. I think singing in a group really helps hone your skills. Transitioning into solo work was interesting, but that group foundation helped a lot.
Mike:
KW, before Dawn in the Dark, you were involved in a lot of projects—many award-winning projects. Your career spans 20 or 30 years at this point. Can you give us the rundown of how you got into music?
KW:
I got into music because of Casey Kasem’s Top 40 in the 1980s.
Mike:
Nice.
KW:
And Slash—with the Les Paul. I didn’t even know who he was. I just liked the look of the guitar. I was around 12 or 13 when I saw that Les Paul and said, “I have to play this. I have to get this guitar.” That’s how it started, and I’ve never been away from it since.
My parents told me one thing: “Do your studies. Finish college. Get your degree. Do your work. Play music on the side.” They never got in my way, and I never disappointed them.
Mike:
So you did go to college and pursue a degree?
KW:
Yes, and I think that’s important in today’s landscape. As a musician, you need some financial stability. Earlier, record labels and A&R agents were scouting bands. Now, they want you to be viral first. If you’re not viral, they’re not interested.
So how do you survive? If you’re doing everything yourself, you need finances. I credit my parents for pushing me to finish my degree. Otherwise, I might have struggled.
Heather and I call ourselves hybrid professionals. We work nine to five, and after that we’re musicians. We don’t even watch television. After work, we make songs. For me, it’s relaxing. It actually helps my IT career too.
And I want to back up for a second. When I started playing guitar in Pakistan, nobody was teaching guitar. This was the early ’90s. There was no YouTube, no internet. No teacher.
So I would record Casey Kasem’s Top 40 on cassette, rewind it, play it, rewind it again, and learn by ear. I didn’t even know how to tune the guitar properly. We later discovered standard tuning from Guitar World magazines.
Mike:
That’s incredible. No books, no teachers?
KW:
Nothing. Just a guitar and the desire to play. Three of my friends and I were self-taught. That’s why my ear developed the way it did. When you’re 12 or 13, you don’t know if your ear is good. You just try. I could figure out what someone was playing just by listening and rewinding.
Mike:
Heather, I want to jump back to you. I understand you were awarded a scholarship in music but chose not to pursue it. Can you talk about that?
Heather:
Yes. It was a tough decision. I was choosing between music and the military. The military offered stability—go in, get your degree, serve five years, and move on. At the time, programs like music education were being cut in schools. Both of my parents were teachers, and I saw the uncertainty.
So I chose stability first. Later, I found him—and he found me—and the rest is history.
Mike:
First of all, thank you for your service. That’s incredible.
Heather:
Thank you.
Mike:
KW, going from learning by rewinding cassette tapes to pursuing music professionally—that’s a big leap. How did that happen?
KW:
Once I got into guitar, I knew it wasn’t a hobby. I was playing 15 hours a day. I didn’t want to go to school. My parents had to threaten to take the guitar away.
I made time for it—even during college and graduate school. If people were going out, I stayed home and practiced. It wasn’t about going to bars. It was about getting better.
We formed a band and, from the beginning, focused on original music. In the ’90s, most bands in our city were playing Megadeth, Guns N’ Roses, Bon Jovi covers. We were writing originals. That mindset carried into my master’s degree—we recorded an instrumental album.
I eventually built my own studio in Pakistan. We recorded, mixed, mastered everything ourselves. I even printed CDs and distributed them to shops. We were the record label.
We won awards in Pakistan, India, and Malaysia. We toured in Dubai and across Asia.
Mike:
Let’s talk about Dawn in the Dark. How did this project come together?
Heather:
We met online—through music. One of the songs on the album, “My Apology,” started as a whim. He sent me a file and said, “See if you can write to this.”
I thought, “I’m either going to ruin this beautiful acoustic piece, or maybe he’ll like it.” He liked it. That’s where the connection really started.
KW:
That piece had been sitting with me for a while. I’d shared it with friends—nothing happened. I sent it to her, and she came back with this strong melody. That click—that chemistry—that’s everything in music.
Mike:
And you responded right away.
Heather:
Yes. Sometimes he’ll play something and I’ll say, “Record that right now. Send it to me.” It just hits at the right moment.
KW:
Some songs on the album—like “Count Me Out” and “Stay”—were written while we were talking on video. I was playing, she said, “Send it,” and they became songs. We were thousands of miles apart.
Mike:
So the band officially formed around 2022?
Heather:
Yes, technically 2022 is when the name came together. The idea really started forming in 2020, but it took a little time to solidify.
Mike:
You recently released your debut album. Even though it’s your first full-length release as Dawn in the Dark, it’s not the first material you’ve put out together, correct?
KW:
Right. The last two tracks on the album are unplugged acoustic versions. We recorded those in September 2022 when we were in Pakistan. It was acoustic guitars, tabla instead of drums, and her voice. Very different from the full recorded versions on the album.
Heather:
We posted those on YouTube at the time just to put something out there. But yes, there was definitely a gap before the full album release.
Mike:
What was the reason for that gap?
KW:
Several reasons. First, I moved to the United States after we got married, so there was an adjustment period. Second, many of the songs were written remotely. We hadn’t really played them with a full band consistently.
When we first played them live, we were kind of winging it. If you take that straight into the studio, you lose some of the essence and feel. So we decided to let the songs evolve.
We had the structure—verses, choruses, ideas for solos—but we wanted to play them live with a band, let them breathe, let them grow. Once we felt confident and comfortable with how they sounded, then we went into the studio.
Mike:
I love that approach. I think more artists should test songs live before recording. There’s so much pressure now to constantly release material.
KW:
Exactly. And as an artist, the entire process has to feel right to you. During recording, she might do a few takes and I’d say, “Let’s do it again.” I’d record six or seven solos, and she’d say, “No, that one doesn’t work.”
You don’t want to compromise. That’s important.
Mike:
Absolutely. You shouldn’t have to compromise your own creative work.
KW:
We let it evolve, and that’s why we’re very happy with the final product.
Mike:
Did you produce the album?
KW:
Yes.
Mike:
That’s impressive. Being both producer and performer requires different skill sets.
KW:
They are different, but nowadays those roles are merging. If you’re an artist, it helps to understand the entire process—from writing to recording to promoting.
Some of the new artists coming up are doing everything themselves. They don’t need anyone.
Mike:
I always say you don’t necessarily need everyone, but you do need people. At the very least, you should understand each role. If you’re working with a producer, you should understand what they’re trying to accomplish.
And promotion is another big one. Not every musician knows how to promote themselves.
KW:
Exactly. Many musicians are shy. They’re in their own world and don’t know how to communicate or network.
Mike:
And today, audiences want to know the artist. That can be challenging for introverted creatives.
KW:
That’s true. But I think there are two sides. If you’re financially secure, it doesn’t matter as much whether people like what you’re doing. If you’re depending on it for income, then it becomes important.
Neither side is wrong. It depends on your situation.
Mike:
I agree. I often ask this question: If your audience was zero, would it still be worth doing?
Heather:
That’s a good one.
Mike:
For me, when I started this podcast, the audience was zero. But it was still worth it because I was practicing, networking, creating something I believed in.
And social media is just a tool. You don’t have to use it the same way everyone else does.
KW:
Yes, but there’s also a lot of noise now. Earlier, hobbyists didn’t have an outlet. Now everyone does. That’s good—but it creates a layer you have to break through.
There are also many companies promising promotion. You have to be careful. Don’t depend entirely on them.
Think globally. Don’t limit yourself to your local scene. And promote yourself. We’re going to open mics, playing acoustic sets, telling people about the album. That’s what you have to do.
Mike:
It has to be part of the strategy, not the whole strategy.
KW:
Exactly.
Mike:
Let’s talk about AI. It’s a huge topic right now. There are musicians and songwriters worried about their jobs becoming irrelevant. What are your thoughts?
Heather:
I try not to be negative about it. It can be a useful tool. For example, if we have a composition idea, maybe AI could help shape it or take it somewhere unexpected.
You can throw prompts in and see what comes back, then riff off those ideas. It can assist creativity.
I don’t think it’s the boogeyman.
KW:
AI tools are created by humans. They are trained. They don’t have natural artistic inspiration. They learn from what’s already out there.
There will be a lot of noise. A lot of music created partially by AI. But the human element is still essential.
You mentioned Suno earlier. Yes, new artists can use tools like that to generate songs quickly. But imagine how a serious artist could use those tools to help finish material that’s been sitting around.
I work in the AI software industry. AI is a buzzword right now. But it’s still a tool. You have to teach it.
So I would say: adapt. Don’t fear it. See how it can help you.
Mike:
It reminds me of when autotune first became popular. People said that was the end of singers. It wasn’t. It found its place.
KW:
Exactly. Every decade has purists saying everything is going downhill. But things evolve.
Mike:
AI can also help people learn. Imagine if you had access to AI when you were learning guitar by rewinding tapes.
KW:
Yes! That’s a great point. It could have accelerated learning. It’s a tool.
Just keep believing. Your talent and your vision aren’t going away anytime soon.
Mike:
Speaking of the human element, I want to talk about something different. You have a nonprofit called Guitar Collective. Can you tell us about that?
KW:
Yes. During COVID, when everything was shut down and performances stopped, I had the idea to bring South Asian guitar players together online.
Because I had toured extensively in Pakistan and across Asia, I knew many guitar players from different bands. In music scenes, everyone knows everyone through someone.
We started online sessions where we just talked about guitars—how we got into music, what instruments we use, how we plug into amps. In South Asia, there isn’t something like Guitar World magazine that spotlights guitarists. So the audience often doesn’t know the stories behind the players they see on stage.
It started small—maybe five or ten of us. Now we have over 5,400 members. About 200 of those are moderators who are actual guitar players. The rest are part of the community.
It’s nonprofit. Everyone is a moderator based on contribution, not status. It’s really about sharing knowledge and keeping the community alive.
Heather:
And earlier this year, he organized an in-person event in Islamabad. It wasn’t commercial. It was very personal. A lot of musicians came out of their shells. They performed, connected, and just enjoyed being together again.
KW:
Yes. We produced our first live season—four-camera recording, stage, lights, sound. All done ourselves. It was relaxed—not a festival, not a jam that never ends. A controlled but comfortable environment where musicians could improvise but still perform full songs.
The response was incredible. The goal now is to take it to other cities, possibly Dubai, and eventually the U.S.
Mike:
That’s amazing. I really admire that you’re building community like that.
KW:
Thank you. It’s important.
Mike:
As we start wrapping up, what’s next for Dawn in the Dark?
KW:
We have four music videos coming out—“Count Me Out,” “Stay,” “Power in Lies,” and “Fade Away.”
We’re based in the Bay Area, and we’re continuing to play locally. We’re also playing December 6th at Molly Malone’s in Los Angeles.
And we’re hitting open mics, meeting people, telling them about the album. Meanwhile, we’re already working on the next record. We have material ready.
Heather:
It never stops.
Mike:
I have a couple of final questions for both of you.
Heather, what was the very first concert you ever went to?
Heather:
That’s a great question. Outside of church, I remember going to a community pianist concert when I was in middle school. It was just one pianist, but I was mesmerized. I bought the cassette afterward and listened to it over and over.
Growing up in a small town, seeing a professional musician live was powerful.
Mike:
KW, what about you?
KW:
In Pakistan, I remember attending a festival-style concert with several well-known bands. That was probably around 1989 or 1990.
In the U.S., my first big rock concert was Megadeth in Pittsburgh. I was a huge Marty Friedman fan. It was amazing to see them live.
Mike:
Is there an artist you’re listening to right now?
KW:
Cardinal Black.
Heather:
And Wild Rivers.
KW:
Both independent artists. Very inspirational. They’re doing everything themselves—touring, building their brand.
We also discover new music through Spotify and Pandora recommendations. That’s one advantage of AI—it helps broaden your exposure to new artists.
Mike:
If you could give just one piece of advice to a fellow musician, what would it be?
KW:
Keep believing. Don’t do it for the money. Do it for your own satisfaction. If you stop believing, it ends. Every day is a new day. Keep improving. Keep playing.
Heather:
For me, it’s: don’t get in your own way. Self-doubt can destroy creativity. As kids, we create freely. As adults, we start judging ourselves.
Stay out of your own way and just create.
KW:
Keep believing. That’s it.
Mike:
I couldn’t say it better myself. Thank you both so much for taking the time. Congratulations on the debut album, and I wish you the best moving forward.
Heather:
Thank you so much, Mike.
KW:
Thank you. We appreciate it.