Messy Action Is Better Than Doom Scrolling (Grace Otto)
Also available on: Apple Podcasts · Spotify
Indie Dark Pop artist Grace Otto shares how theater, songwriting, fashion, and activism all come together in her creative identity. We also talk about learning through open mics, navigating social media and music marketing, and her latest single “Bad Man”.
Key Takeaways
Creativity isn’t something you have to wait to feel. Like any skill, it gets stronger when you consistently put in the reps.
Early work doesn’t have to be great to be valuable. Grace’s first songs never became releases, but performing them led to relationships and opportunities that moved her career forward.
Marketing can feel uncomfortable when you care deeply about the work, but explaining who the work is for helps the right audience find it.
Artists today have more control over their careers, but that also means competing with more noise and taking on more responsibility for content, promotion, and audience development.
A memorable creative identity extends beyond the work itself. Visuals, fashion, performance, storytelling, and the overall experience can all give people another reason to pay attention.
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Related Episodes
How to Build a Creative Identity That Feels Like You (Rivkah Reyes)
Both conversations explore creative identity across multiple disciplines and how artists can bring different parts of themselves into one body of work instead of forcing themselves into a single lane
Build a Brand Without Losing Yourself (Kyle Knight)
Kyle’s conversation about consistency, branding, and staying authentic while reaching a wider audience closely connects with Grace’s discussion of visual identity, recognizable content, and marketing.
Host: Michael Zimmerlich
Post-Production: EarthtoMoira
Music by: Daphne Greene
A podcast by Omelette Prevail, a creative company connecting creators, brands, and ideas through partnerships and collaboration.
Transcript:
00:00 Identity and Creative Influences
Mike Zimmerlich: Hey, Grace. How’s it going?
Grace Otto: How are you doing?
Mike Zimmerlich: I’m doing great. Thanks for asking. I’m so excited to have you on the show, and I’m very, very excited because you have a new single that we’re going to be talking about. In fact, it’ll probably be dropping tomorrow, so very excited about that.
But I do want to start off with one of the things I’ve always found fascinating, because I love everything that you’ve been doing so far. I love all the music that you’re coming out with, but there’s also this really unique blend of theatrics and visual elements to your musical styles and genres.
One of the things that I noticed that you emphasize heavily is identity, and I want to know what identity specifically means to you.
Grace Otto: Totally. So I’ve kind of come to the conclusion that identity is part of a performance, right? It’s a performance that we put on for others to align with what’s on the inside.
Within that, I know that there are things that I like to take from. There are other identities or other elements of other people that I really love to take and incorporate into my own to kind of create the collage of the Grace Otto experience.
It’s funny because I feel like I have so many different identities at this point. I have performing Grace identity. I have hanging out with friends identity. I teach kids piano and voice and stuff, so that’s a whole completely different identity and a whole completely different performance.
Within that, though, I think that there is authenticity to each one of those identities. I think that’s kind of what I bring to the table with a lot of my performance and my identities, is at least that there’s an authenticity there that I definitely demand of myself and my music.
If I’m going to perform what’s on the inside, I better be 100% sure what’s on the inside, you know what I mean? That’s kind of where I’m at with that.
My identity is very important, and also being a positive force in communities that I perform in or communities that I’m a part of. So yeah, that’s kind of what I would say about identity now.
Mike Zimmerlich: You mentioned that you grab from different people that inspire you and motivate you. Can you talk about maybe a couple of individuals or groups, or where you get your influence from?
Grace Otto: Absolutely. I’ve been doing theater for a very long time, so I do have that theatrical, loud... There’s my cat.
I do have a very theatrical, lively feel just naturally because I’ve been performing since I was pretty young. I’ve also naturally just always been very loud.
I would definitely say that theatrical, musical theater kind of vibe is in there. Obviously, Chappell Roan. I really love drag. I really love the drag community that is in Phoenix. I am very inspired by them, and a lot of them I would consider to be my friends, so I’m very inspired by a lot of my friends.
Also, of course, music artists. I love Lady Gaga. I’ve loved Lady Gaga for a long time. I love Billie Eilish. I think she’s fantastic. I think she’s phenomenal. I think she’s also just a really great person. I mean, I don’t know her personally, but she seems like a really great, principled individual.
And Chappell Roan. I love her, and I love that she... Can I curse on this? Keep it to the minimum?
Mike Zimmerlich: PG-13 if you can.
Grace Otto: Okay, okay. I love that she is that girl. I’ll say that. She is in her element. She really respects herself, and she demands that respect from other people, which I think can come off as conceited or egotistical.
But I really love that she is strong in that way so that other women, other girls can say, “Hey, I can be strong like that too. I don’t have to take that.”
Then obviously, I love Chappell’s music. I love Billie Eilish and Avril Lavigne. I love the 2000s. I love My Chemical Romance.
All of those elements I think are pretty clear in my direction. By themselves, maybe they wouldn’t pop out except for that Chappell Roan, but all together, I think they make sense.
Mike Zimmerlich: It kind of does. I can see how there was that influence between Gaga and Billie Eilish and especially Chappell Roan, but then also having that mix in there a little bit too. I can totally see that.
You mentioned that you were performing at a young age. Were you also performing music at a younger age?
Grace Otto: I was doing a lot of musical theater. My first time ever performing was at this summer camp up in Billings, Montana. I’m from Montana, so small-town Montana. Well, biggest town in Montana, which is not saying much, right?
There was this community theater that I totally fell in love with, and the first time that we performed there, it was a summer camp kind of vibe.
They had me do “Respect” by Aretha Franklin, which is insane to have a seven or eight-year-old do that. But I was so into it, and that’s how I caught the bug.
Even though I have that love for musical theater, I have always had this love for radio songs. Radio throughout the decades too.
That was kind of the first time I had performed that, and I did that summer camp for years, just learning new, well, new to me music, but the oldies, really hearkening back to the pop hits that worked in the ’60s, the pop hits that worked in the ’70s, the ’80s.
We did a whole Beatles one. So yeah, I think that was really, really impactful as a young kid to not only be able to perform, but also being able to perform songs from different decades and really feel into the vibe of that decade was very helpful, I think, in my eventual journey of becoming a musician.
07:00 From Theater to Songwriting
Mike Zimmerlich: I’d like to talk more about that, your eventual journey becoming a musician, because one of the things I noticed was that there was a gap in time between you performing as a kid and then the point of actually writing music.
It was 2018, which, if we think about it, is actually about eight years ago, so that is a while now. But still, that came a little bit later in your life that you decided to write music.
Why at that point in time did you decide, “I want to start writing lyrics”?
Grace Otto: Totally. Essentially what really happened was I was studying theater. I was convinced I was going to be a playwright or I was going to be an actress or whatever. Which, in hindsight, I’m an okay actress. I’m not a great actress, so I’m glad that didn’t pan out.
But really what happened was I got into this really creative space with theater that I didn’t really know about.
There was a concept in theater called devised theater, where basically it’s collaborative play development, and that just really tickled my brain. I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is so cool, and this is so fun. I get to write plays with other people? That’s great.”
I was also a bassoon minor in college, because why not? So I was always doing music. It was always different kinds of pieces and fragments.
But I was taking this music theory class, and I realized, “This is just piano.” I hadn’t picked up the piano since I was a kid. I hated the piano when I was a kid. I was like, “I’m never touching this again.”
But I realized, okay, wait. There’s this creative side, and there’s this music side of me. What if I just smash it together and see what happens?
So I just started writing some songs.
The first song that I ever wrote was about someone who was trying to take my man, which I think now it’s very obvious that that has become pretty much a keystone in a lot of my music. Not necessarily a man, but someone’s always trying to take my pookie.
Long story short, that’s kind of how they all came together.
I think I was a junior in college, and I knew that I had all these feelings, and I knew that I couldn’t always be in that collaborative play development area where I was so excited to share my feelings.
Also, that’s not the safest space if you don’t know everybody super, super well.
But I knew that if I could just kind of combine all of those by myself, I could, A, be safe and, B, say whatever I want. And that was really freeing, being like, I can say anything I want, and I’m not hurting anybody.
No one’s going to be like, “Oh, by the way, first name, last name, this is about you.” There’s an element of anonymity that I really enjoy with songwriting because I can say whatever.
I can say whatever I want, and I don’t have to be like, “Oh, by the way, first name, last name, this is about you.”
It can just kind of linger in the air of, “Oh, is this about me?” And you’ll never know. I like that. I like that a lot.
Mike Zimmerlich: That’s interesting, the mystery essentially behind the lyrics, because the lyrics become a story, right?
The story could be based upon real events, and it could not be based upon real events, and that’s up to everyone else’s interpretation of what that song actually means.
Grace Otto: Exactly. And you’ll never know. I kind of love that.
I love that music can be so grounded in your own experience, or it can be a story. Both of those are super interesting and valid and things that I enjoy playing with.
Sometimes I’ll kind of hodgepodge stories together. That’s fun, making a mosaic of different things that people have done so that it’s a little bit mysterious.
I’m not a very mysterious person, but yeah.
Mike Zimmerlich: No, but again, it’s like that little bit of a blend. There is some mystery, but there’s also not mystery if you have a better understanding of what it’s about or how much you’re paying attention to what the lyrics or even just overall your presence is all about.
I can totally see that.
I’m curious. You decided that, okay, I’m really enjoying the songwriting process. The next step after that, did you decide, “Okay, I really want to get these songs recorded,” or how did it go from that to actually starting to record the music?
12:00 Open Mics and Messy Action
Grace Otto: Really awesome question. Thank you.
No, I didn’t get anything recorded for a while. I just started going to open mics. I was like, “Whatever, I’m just going to go and play some open mics.”
There was this little coffee shop, hookah bar, lounge place that had an open mic that I would go to all the time. It was called Espresso Art, and it was just like this seedy little college place, right?
It was filled with musicians and everyone that you would expect at a hookah bar, coffee shop, open mic lounge. It was a lot of fun at the time, for sure.
That was when I first did my very first open mic down in Tucson, and I was horribly nervous because I had been performing a lot, but I had never performed my own piece of music.
And to be fair, it wasn’t a very good song. It was one of my first songs. I had two songs and I was like, “I’m going to go perform this right now,” and there were like three people in the audience. It was very, very small at that point.
But yeah, I just kind of threw myself into the fire, and then there was a community that ended up getting created there that was fun for a while.
Essentially what happened was there’s this guy named Joseph who’s a part of a band called Her Name Echoes, and he heard one of my songs. We were kind of friends, and he had heard one of my songs at the open mics.
He was like, “You should find a producer,” and that’s how I found Hiram, and then that’s how that album happened.
You never know what putting yourself out there will entail.
I never recorded any of the songs that I played at those open mics because I frankly don’t think that they’re very good songs. But they got me to where I needed to go, and that’s the important thing, just kind of taking that really messy action.
So yeah, that’s kind of that journey of how I went from just doing theater and rolling around on the floor playing with clip lights to having a band and being here right now.
Mike Zimmerlich: One of my friends said it best, and I’ve always liked this phrase, that when you create something for the first time, it’s going to be bad.
Grace Otto: Yes.
Mike Zimmerlich: I like that phrase a lot, because even if it isn’t bad, that’s not the point. The point is that going into it, you should assume that it’s not going to be good.
Grace Otto: Yeah.
Mike Zimmerlich: That’s the point, right? You have to start. Everyone starts somewhere.
Most of the time, wherever you start, it’s not going to be good. So you have to accept that that is part of the journey.
Whatever you start with, the first song you write, the first song you record, the first podcast episode, the first piece of social content you post, whatever the case might be, it’s going to be bad.
It’s almost that acceptance of, “Okay, it’s okay that it’s bad,” and you continue on from there.
Because I feel like for so many of us, that is what prevents us from starting anything, especially anything creative, right?
Grace Otto: Oh, absolutely.
Mike Zimmerlich: Is anyone going to like it? Is it going to suck? Do I actually have the talent to do this?
All those things start going through our heads, and that prevents us from doing things, when the reality is you have to put the work in.
Just like anything else, you have to put the reps in to be able to work on that and to get to where you are today.
Grace Otto: Totally. And I think there’s this really false idea of creativity being something that is just like, “Oh my gosh, it was just divine inspiration, and now we have all this music.”
That’s just not how it really works. I really do believe that anyone that puts the reps in can become very creative.
It’s a muscle, right? Exactly like you were saying, and creativity is like that as well.
You don’t expect yourself to know how to do calculus. Day one of calc class, you’re not expecting to be Albert Einstein.
So why would you expect to write a top hit as your first song, right?
That’s kind of how I view creativity as well.
17:00 Relearning Social Media
Grace Otto: And I’m now kind of getting that beginner feeling with social media in a lot of ways.
It sucks, man, to be 100% honest. Going back to that really beginner feeling of posting music.
I did a little sidetrack tangent in my journey to getting here, which was political activism and stuff like that, which I’m glad that I did.
Within that, I also would do a lot of political commentary on TikTok, and that popped off pretty well.
Then I was like, “Okay, well now I’m a musician, so I already know how to make this,” and it’s completely different.
It is a completely different beast of how to make something.
So I definitely am in a very similar point again. It’s like, no, I have to learn something new again?
But like we were talking about, it’s the reps and the journey.
Mike Zimmerlich: That’s really interesting.
Do you find, because that’s always challenging, when you go from an audience that is accustomed to a type of content that you have been posting to something that is quite different, did the audience go with you when you started doing more musician-type content, or did you find that some dropped off?
Were people like, “Stop. We don’t want to hear your music anymore. We want to hear more of your political commentary”?
How smooth of a transition was that for you?
Grace Otto: Because of the political activism and actually being out in the world trying to make that difference, I kind of went from posting a lot of political stuff to not posting very much.
I’m pretty sure my TikTok page is mad at me because it’s like, “Oh, we let you go viral a bunch of times, and now you’re changing stuff and you haven’t posted in years, so here you go.”
I get it. I get that on the platform.
Honestly, my face wasn’t on the platform for a while, so I think it’s a little bit of both.
There are some people that do remember when I released “You’re the Worst.” There are people that comment like, “I remember when it was ‘You’re the Worst,’ and I’m so proud of you,” and that’s always really great. I love those comments.
But I posted something, I think it was about my music with my cat or something like that, and someone was like, “Oh wow, this page has gone really downhill.”
And I was like, “Oh my God. Thank you so much, stranger on the internet. I appreciate you.”
I don’t really let those comments get to me as much. I’ve gotten so many hate comments because I did the political thing that I don’t really care anymore, which is nice and freeing, because I used to.
Now I’m just like, “Whatever, it’s engagement.”
Relearning social media as an artist, and also the amount of posting that it takes and the fact that you want it to be not only consistent but also recognizable every time, drives me nuts.
I’m like, “I want to do this, and I want to do this, and I want to do this,” and it’s like, no, the success is when you just do six to eight-second clips and you just throw them out there.
It drives me nuts, and I think that it’s kind of annoying.
But I understand why, right? You want that name recognition. You want that face recognition.
Personally, as an artist, it drives me a little nuts, which is why I haven’t done it and which is why I also need to do it, because that is a lot of times where a lot of success comes from.
So I’m kind of like this right now, especially with this release.
Mike Zimmerlich: I feel the exact same way too, and I’m always trying to find out what works.
There’s a balance between what’s working and what you are proud of and excited about producing, right? There has to be a balance there of the two things. Technically, it really should be both.
Grace Otto: Totally.
Mike Zimmerlich: Because if you are not enjoying what you’re putting out there, but it’s working, that’s not going to ultimately work long term.
And vice versa, if you really enjoy what you’re putting out there, but nobody’s paying attention to it, then that’s also not giving you the end result either.
So it really does have to be both.
That just comes from, as you mentioned, trying things out and experimenting and seeing what works and what doesn’t work.
I feel like the biggest thing is what you’re talking about, that consistency. I’m talking about not only consistency in how often you post, but also consistency in what you’re posting.
If they’re seeing your face, the consistency of seeing your face in multiple different posts gives that familiarity of your style or your branding, if you will, of the content that you’re producing.
So I feel that is very important.
It’s interesting, though, because I’ve also witnessed what are called general content creators, where it’s a content creator that doesn’t focus on one specific thing.
They focus on lots of different things, but because of their personality or their brand or whatever the case might be, people gravitate towards them even though it’s not on one specific thing.
I find that interesting too, that we’re coming to that point where you can theoretically talk about music, but then also maybe political commentary or maybe something about theater.
But it’s still within, as you were talking about before, the Grace Otto universe, if you will.
Grace Otto: Sure, totally.
Mike Zimmerlich: It’s still the same style. It’s still your same interests, and people are coming to it because of you specifically, not necessarily because it’s about music or about political commentary.
Grace Otto: I do like that. That is very helpful because the political and activism part of me, obviously, especially with what’s going on in the world right now, is never going to go away, and I don’t want it to go away.
The song that I’m releasing is a political song, right? We will get more into it, but the song that I’m releasing is a political song. I’ve done political songs before.
I really want us to move towards a more positive world, a more positive experience, and talking about that is the first step, right?
Then there’s actual action within your community and all that good stuff.
But it’s a part of me that’s never going to go away. It’s a part of my content that’s never going to go away.
Whenever I put the phone up, I’m like, “I have a thought on this, actually. I’m going to talk about this.”
Then I’m like, “Wait a second. I’m supposed to be promoting my music.”
So it’s that balance as well.
I really love the work that has gone into “Bad Man” and some of that shorter-form content with the big antlers and the corset and the lace and everything.
I really do love the visuals for that.
I actually made a TikTok that I didn’t post, though, where it’s like, I get really frustrated because I have this beautiful song, and I’ve got this really beautiful visual, and then it’s like, “Stop scrolling. If you want to discover a new artist with less than 200 monthly listeners who does dark pop...”
That just feels corny.
But it’s important. It’s important to do. I’m just yapping about my feelings on it.
It feels a little corny for all the work that’s been put in, but I know that it’s also the stuff that kind of works.
Mike Zimmerlich: So why were you debating upon posting it?
When you mean corny, do you mean you don’t feel like it would land properly?
Because I’ve also noticed that there are other content creators that will do that strategy as far as posting something like, “Hey, I’m a small creator,” or a small artist essentially trying to get attention for the type of art that they’re creating.
Did you feel like other artists have done a similar approach? Why were you teetering on that one?
Grace Otto: No, so I actually posted the video, but then there was a video of me complaining that marketing is corny, because I think marketing is kind of corny.
I didn’t post that one, but now I’m talking about it, so we’re here.
I do feel like marketing is a little corny, and it’s not that it’s disingenuous, right?
You want people to come in. You want to tell them who you are in a more digestible way that doesn’t take 30 minutes or doesn’t take a whole concert or whatever.
So I understand the necessity of it, but it always just feels a little corny, is all I’m trying to say.
But again, I understand the need for it.
Mike Zimmerlich: It can be, because if you think about it, we are now in a society where we’re being sold to constantly.
Actually, humans have always been this, since the dawn of time, so this is nothing new. It’s just so much more amplified.
Grace Otto: Yes.
Mike Zimmerlich: That does create fatigue.
Humans have always sold to each other all the time. I don’t want to say caveman days, but hundreds of years ago, there was trade. There was convincing.
You’re always marketing. You’re presenting something.
As an artist, you’re marketing your work. Even if there’s not a monetary exchange, everyone thinks about marketing as a monetary thing, but it isn’t.
You are marketing your music because you are promoting that I want you to listen to my music.
So the question comes down to, well, why?
Why your music?
If I want to listen to music right now and I have an infinite supply of choice when it comes to listening to music, why should I be listening to you?
Grace Otto: Yeah.
Mike Zimmerlich: And that’s what marketing’s all about.
Okay, I’m going to tell you why.
Like you said, I am a smaller artist, so if you are the kind of person that likes to listen to new music from an upcoming artist, I’m your choice.
Also, my music is dark pop, so if you like that type of music, that’s another reason why you should check out my music.
You’re explaining to people, okay, if this is the type of music that you like, if this is the kind of artist that you like, you should listen to my brand-new single.
That’s what marketing is. It’s both presenting to the world, if you will, “This is what I have,” and at the same token, it’s also to filter to the people that would be interested specifically in what you’re creating.
Grace Otto: Yeah, and I think you’re right.
Not only have we been selling and marketing for as long as people have been peopling, more or less, but specifically what you said about we’re just being marketed to all of the time.
I know how fatiguing it is. When I scroll TikTok and it’s like, “Hey, buy this. Buy this dress,” or whatever, it’s just kind of constant.
It’s this constant bombardment.
But at least when marketing music, it’s something real and it’s something that someone made, that is important.
So I think that’s more of an internal mental thing that I need to switch around from, “It’s corny,” to like, “No, it’s okay. It is something real and something authentic.”
So it’s not that corny.
Mike Zimmerlich: The interesting part too is, if you compare it to other content creators, some content creators are strictly about the platform that they’re creating.
They’re either creating entertainment or education or something along those lines, so there’s immediate value there.
If I’m scrolling through TikTok and I come across a video that is entertaining or educational for me, that creates immediate value.
What’s interesting is that when you are a different type of creator, such as a musician or even a podcaster, yes, we want to still provide some sort of value to TikTok or Instagram or whatever the case is, but the end goal, what we truly are creating, is not on the platform directly.
It’s outside of it.
Grace Otto: Right.
Mike Zimmerlich: So we by nature have to let people know, “Okay, we’re going to give you a taste essentially of what we do.”
We’re giving you a taste of it because that’s what the platform’s designed for.
In our case, we create longer-form content.
Whether it’s a three-to-four-minute song or a 30 or 40-minute-long podcast, that’s where the true value of what we’re creating is.
So sometimes it’s hard to determine, okay, well, how do we get people to be interested in what we’re doing on this platform where this is not really where we want them to be?
We want them to be somewhere else, right?
We want them to start listening to my song while they have their headphones on and they’re on their computer or on their phone, whatever the case is, and the same thing is true with the podcast.
So that is the tricky part, telling people to go somewhere else for where the true value is.
Whereas with other content creators, it’s, “Well, no, you’re in the right place. Here it is. Here’s my bit. Here’s my sketch. Here’s some information that could be useful to you.”
I’m immediately already providing value.
Grace Otto: Totally.
I think you’re so right. There is that extra step that is kind of demanded.
I’m not trying to say that creating instant-value content isn’t difficult. Obviously, people that make those mini movies, it’s totally difficult.
But there’s that extra step with those longer-form contents, as you’re saying, of like, actually, you need to go to my profile and you need to click things in order to get to the thing.
That’s so hard because people scroll and this is it, right?
So you have to hit them over and over and over and over and over again and hope that you’re hitting the same target demographic, the same target audience, so that they will eventually go to the platform, click on a different platform, check it out, and decide from there.
It’s interesting. We’re definitely in a very interesting moment in time for musicians and for podcasters and stuff.
33:00 Music Careers and Live Shows
Mike Zimmerlich: Do you feel that content generation as a whole, where there’s so much being put out there across the board, is empowering as an artist, or is it hindering to an artist, or is it a little bit of both?
Grace Otto: I do think it’s both.
I think it’s both because there’s so much noise, and I think that there is a frustration with how much noise there is and how to cut through.
But at the same time, back in the ’70s or even, I think, as far up as the ’90s or 2000s, you couldn’t really have a music career in...
I mean, maybe you could. I guess there’s Jimmy Eat World and stuff like that. They did have a music career in Arizona.
But usually, you had to go to LA, or you absolutely had to go to New York. You absolutely had to go to these music places, and you had to get signed, and there was no other option.
So I think that’s kind of nice, the fact that the tool is in your hand, so you just have to do it.
You don’t get a whole lot of help. You just have to go for it.
I think there are pros and cons with every point in history as an artist.
For example, people were going to more shows in the ’70s and the ’80s, and tickets were a lot cheaper.
Now you have to convince someone to pay the 20 bucks to get there, and a lot of the sales that you actually get as an artist is through merch.
So now they’ve spent the 25 bucks to get in the door, or the 15 bucks to get in the door, and then you’re like, “Oh my God, also please buy my merch.”
With the economy, it’s just an extra burden that wasn’t necessarily there to go in person and see live performance.
So I think that it’s just kind of the pros and cons of the times.
There are people that have totally blown up on TikTok and are fantastic musicians. There are probably so many artists that don’t because they don’t want to do it.
There’s also just the saturation. There’s so much going on all the time.
I do think it is a little harder to get people to care about what you’re doing because there’s just so much going on all the time.
It’s like, “Well, why don’t you care about this? And why don’t you care about this?”
And it’s like, well, I do actually care about all those things. I’m just also trying to get you to care about me, and then we can care about those things together and create that community.
I think every single time period has something difficult, something advantageous, and this is just the one that we find ourselves in.
Mike Zimmerlich: I really appreciate you mentioning live events because that’s a really interesting subject.
I don’t have the numbers in front of me, so please don’t quote me on this, but I’m pretty sure that live event attendance has actually increased in the last couple of years.
Grace Otto: Oh, okay. Good.
Mike Zimmerlich: Ever since the pandemic.
A number of things. One is the need for people to want to commune and to be out there and to be physically present. I think that was a big part of it.
Then obviously, discretionary income. People were wanting to spend it now on live experiences.
Was that more than in the ’70s? I honestly have no clue.
But I do know there is a dramatic increase in live attendance.
The thing, though, is like you said, ticket pricing has also significantly increased as well.
I feel like what we’re seeing here, just like everything else, is that people are more selective of the shows that they go to.
In many cases, many prefer to spend double or triple the amount to go see the one artist that they really love than going to three concerts for artists that they still like, but maybe not as much as the main one.
There’s more of a discrepancy where you see people attending those larger concerts.
People are like, “It’s crazy that you have artists charging three, four, five, six hundred dollars or four figures or more for tickets,” but they’re still selling out.
Grace Otto: Mm-hmm.
Mike Zimmerlich: I think that’s the case, though. People are saving up money and going to that one show that they really want to go see in comparison to three or four shows that they may still be excited to go to, but maybe don’t feel are as worth the investment in comparison to the one big one that they really want to go to.
Grace Otto: Totally.
Another thing too is that I think when you get to that point where you’re selling tickets for X amount of money, there is also a pretty dramatic budget increase in the experience.
You’ve got to work hard to get to that point where you have that big budget in a lot of ways.
I actually think that concerts in the way that we are doing concerts now are much more akin to a theatrical experience, right?
You are experiencing this world.
Look at My Chemical Romance. Again, I love My Chemical Romance, okay?
I went to their concert, and they’ve got this whole storyline, right? They’ve always been really into their storylines.
Within that, I got to go to an experience that had this fully fleshed-out storyline and pyrotechnics and a bunch of stuff.
On one hand, as a small artist, it can be like, “Why can’t someone just pop in and hang out and say hi?”
And it’s like, that’s not how people work.
If you’re not going to build an experience, which is kind of what I try to do specifically with the fashion or whatever I can with the amount of time and the budget that I have, it’s to create something that makes someone stop at a live event.
Or stop scrolling or whatever.
It’s just like, “Oh wow. Here’s this thing. Here’s this experience. What the heck is going on?”
So I think that for smaller artists, fashion becomes very important. Obviously fashion, branding, whatever.
But yeah, what is the experience?
The actual experience that you’re providing to people and getting people out, because it can be hard to get a babysitter or whatever somebody’s life might be.
Or like, “Hey, put down your school book. I know that you have finals, but come to my show.”
And it’s like, well, it’s 15 bucks and it’s not that big of a deal, so I’m just going to sit this one out. I’m sure that I’ll catch them again, right?
I think that’s kind of the difficulty.
Maybe smaller artists don’t have the ability to make the big grand performance that will make people, because of budgeting and whatever, say, “Okay, I’m going to carve out my entire night.”
I get to go and be around people with the same vocabulary.
Taylor Swift fans have this great vocabulary of Easter eggs and when she was this age. There’s a story and there’s lore there.
So yeah, I think that, yes, people are getting back into the world, and that’s very exciting, but how do local artists kind of tap into that as well?
It’s just interesting, and I haven’t figured it out. It’s just interesting to kind of muse on.
41:00 Bad Man and Creative Rejection
Mike Zimmerlich: I do want to talk about your latest single that’s coming out tomorrow, which I’m so excited for, called “Bad Man.”
Can you talk a little bit more about the song?
Grace Otto: Totally.
“Bad Man,” I would say, is a pretty staunch criticism of terrible men in power, right?
Just like we’ve been marketing to each other forever, there have also been bad, evil men in power for a very, very long time.
There’s a quote in there. It’s, “You’re making life a nightmare, showing that you don’t care. You’re just a bad man.”
Within these systems of power, I think we’ve gotten to the point where we kind of realize that these systems of power are not working or are not very kind.
Basically, it’s just kind of a critique and all the feelings that come with being under kind of an oppressive thumb of these bad men, right?
“I’m so tired all the time. I can’t think, you can’t think, I think I’m going to lose my mind.”
There’s a word that I can’t say in there.
Or, “Aren’t you tired of listening to yourself?”
There’s monsters in the alleyway.
It’s a little camp. It’s a little Halloweeny, but the message is important.
I love a camp Halloween kind of vibe.
I love when something is important, but it’s in a package of like, “Hey, we’re having fun, but can we talk a little bit about this? This is serious, but let’s have some fun with it.”
We wrote it during the 2020 protests after the murdering of George Floyd. During COVID, it was the height of COVID, and my brain was melting.
Seeing protests that I was like, “Yes,” and also gun violence, it just really felt like the world was ending at that point, which is so funny in hindsight.
Because it just feels like everything has gotten worse and weirder.
Sometimes I look outside and I’m like, “I don’t even know what’s happening. I’m just going to make oatmeal or something. I’m just going to stay inside.”
So yeah, it’s really kind of musing on the dystopian modernity that we have the displeasure of living in right now.
And I’m pointing towards specifically bad men in power because I think that they have the height of the power.
Patriarchy has been around for a very, very, very, very, very long time.
Lots of terrible systems have, but I can speak on that one specifically.
So yeah, that’s kind of what it’s about.
Mike Zimmerlich: That’s amazing.
I really appreciate your perspective on delivering a crucial message, but in a very fun, tongue-in-cheek kind of way.
I think that’s great because that helps draw people in. It gives that familiarity, maybe lightens the mood a little bit and so forth, but still has a very strong message behind it.
I’ll say from a personal standpoint, I absolutely love the song. I love the lyrics and appreciate the lyrics, and it is an absolute bop of a song.
I don’t say that that often, but it is a bop. Once I started hearing it, I was like, “This song is going to be on repeat because this is catchy as hell.”
Grace Otto: Thank you.
Mike Zimmerlich: It is a very, very good song, so I’m very excited for you and for the song coming out.
Grace Otto: Thank you so much.
Actually, that means a lot because I’ve been submitting, and I love the song, right? You never know who you’re going to submit to, but I’ve gotten my fair share of rejections.
So that was very nice. I was having a little bit of self-doubt, but that really was very, very helpful.
So thank you.
Mike Zimmerlich: You always get rejections, right?
Grace Otto: I know. I know. It’s like, keep trucking.
Mike Zimmerlich: The way I always look at rejection is that a rejection is better than nothing.
I also say this for hate commentary as well. It kind of all combines a little bit.
If somebody responds back to you, it means they took the time to respond back to you.
Grace Otto: That is true.
Mike Zimmerlich: If they gave you a hate comment online, they took the time to make a hate comment.
The worst thing is that they just ignore you entirely.
They felt that they wanted to respond back to you, were compelled to do so for whatever reason.
Grace Otto: Which definitely means something.
Yeah, I really like that reframing. I think you’ve given me a lot of reframing tips, so I really appreciate that.
I think I’m going to kind of do a little Rubik’s Cube with my brain.
I really appreciate all of the advice too.
Mike Zimmerlich: Of course.
My mindset, because it drives me crazy when nobody responds, is that I would rather have a no or, “I don’t like it,” whatever the case is.
I learned this from other people as well. When it comes to rejection, it’s called closing the loop.
It’s like, great, the loop is closed. I got my answer. I can now move on. I don’t have to worry about this anymore.
I don’t have to worry about, did they actually receive my message? Do they like it? Do they not like it? If they didn’t like it, what was it that they didn’t like?
Great. They rejected it. Cool. Done.
I don’t have to think about this anymore. It’s out of my head. It’s closed. Move on to something else.
Grace Otto: Yeah, totally.
Mike Zimmerlich: Same thing’s true if somebody makes a comment online.
Not too long ago, I actually got my first negative comment on something I posted, and I got excited.
Grace Otto: Hell yeah.
Mike Zimmerlich: I was like, wow, somebody took the time to respond to the comment about this?
I must be doing something right if somebody’s actually taken the time to comment on it.
Obviously, I’d rather have positive comments, but the fact that anybody is engaging on it at any level is ultimately a good thing if they’re going to take the time.
Because the worst thing possible is that people ignore you or they just simply don’t respond at all.
You have no feedback, no information. You have no idea if what you are doing is actually working or resonating with people.
It gives you nothing to work off of.
But at least if you have something, you can then decide whether the commentary or the rejection is valid or not.
If it is valid, then you can go ahead and do something about it. If you disagree, then you can keep on.
It’s like, cool. Done. Not for that person. Moving on to the next one.
Grace Otto: Totally.
I won’t say specifically what the feedback has been. Actually, no, I will.
It’s been interesting because it’s not indie enough for the indie people, and it’s not quite pop enough for the pop people.
So I’m kind of in this little itty-bitty limbo, but it’s okay.
It’ll find its audience.
Mike Zimmerlich: You know what? I’m going to let everyone else, I’m going to let the audience decide.
I love it. It is a bop.
It is a blend of indie and dark pop, and it’s kind of all combined, but I find it works.
Grace Otto: Thank you. Thank you.
Mike Zimmerlich: It should be up to everyone else to decide whether they dig it or not.
Grace Otto: I agree. And leave a hate comment.
No, I’m just kidding. I’m just kidding. Leave a comment.
Mike Zimmerlich: Yes, exactly.
Grace Otto: No hate comments.
50:00 Final Questions and Advice
Mike Zimmerlich: All right, so we’ll start wrapping things up here.
I do have a couple of fun questions for you to finish this up.
First question for you is, what was the very first concert that you ever went to?
Grace Otto: This is so bizarre. Do you know the band A Perfect Circle?
Mike Zimmerlich: Yes.
Grace Otto: Okay, that was my first concert.
My cousins were going, and I had never been to a concert, and I was like, “I want to go to a concert.”
They were like, “I don’t think you’ll like the music.”
And I was like, “I don’t care. I want to go to a concert. Let me go.”
So we went. We had a great time.
Not on my Spotify Wrapped or anything like that, but I very much enjoyed it. It was great.
Mike Zimmerlich: Do you have a go-to artist that you’re really liking right now?
And I will say this, don’t pick one that you mentioned being inspired by. I want you to start thinking a little bit outside of the box on this one.
Grace Otto: Oh man.
Well, we just played with her, and I really, really love her. I really like her music.
Her name is Rachel Bochner. I’m so bad at names and pronunciations. I am a smidge dyslexic.
But she was, first of all, so sweet, so kind, and really great tunes.
I very much enjoyed playing with her, and she’s also an up-and-coming artist. She’s on tour right now, and we had the pleasure of joining her for her tour when she stopped here.
We were the local support, and it was a blast.
She’s kind of a new artist that I’m definitely going to be listening to more.
Mike Zimmerlich: That’s awesome. Very cool.
All right, last question for you.
If you’re only able to give one piece of advice, what would that one piece of advice be?
Grace Otto: Oh God.
Messy action is better than doom scrolling on your phone. So just do it. Just do it.
Mike Zimmerlich: I love that.
Grace Otto: Yeah, that would be my piece of advice.
Mike Zimmerlich: That’s advice I probably need to get more of these days, because I get very complacent and I’ll be like, “I don’t want to do anything right now. I’m just going to doom scroll.”
And I agree with you, messy action is much better than no action at all.
Grace Otto: Yeah.
Mike Zimmerlich: That’s something that I need to remind myself.
Even lately it’s been like, “How do I message this correctly?” and things like that, and it’s all this friction that I’m creating for myself.
Then instead, it’s a lot easier to have no friction and just doom scroll. So then those things don’t get out the door, and then it gets piled on.
So I agree with you. Being messy is better than nothing at all.
Grace Otto: Totally.
And it’s advice that I give to myself too.
I’m not sitting up on my high horse being like, “Oh, I just take the most messy action because I’m so good at not overthinking.”
I am a chronic overthinker, and I will do the same thing.
I’m like, “Should I word this like this? Should I word this like this?”
So I completely get it.
It’s advice to myself as well as everybody listening, just to take that messy action.
Mike Zimmerlich: I love it.
Well, Grace, thank you so much for being on the show. I really appreciate it, and congratulations on your new single “Bad Man.”
Please, everyone, take a listen to it.
I do often talk about that with my guests, but seriously, this song is freaking awesome.
Definitely go ahead and listen to “Bad Man,” and thanks so much again.
Grace Otto: Thank you. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.