Why Communication Solves Almost Everything (Randy Nichols)
Randy Nichols shares his journey through artist management representing bands like Underoath, The Starting Line, and Say Anything. We also discuss his work consulting tech companies and helping shape the future of music through National Independent Talent Organization (NITO).
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Transcript:
Mike: Hey Randy, how’s it going?
Randy: Good. How have you been?
Mike: Good, thanks. I really do appreciate it. Thank you so much for being on the show.
It’s interesting because I’ve seen you do quite a few podcasts before, so this definitely isn’t your first time doing this. We discussed the fact that we can just jump into it and see how things go.
You’ve talked a lot lately about the live music scene, so have you always been passionate about live music?
Randy: Yeah, I’ve been passionate about it for as long as I can remember. I think the first concert I ever went to, I was probably five or six years old.
It’s always been a hugely important part of my life.
When I was a little kid, my dad took me to a Ramones concert when I was five or six years old, and my mom took me to a Harry Chapin concert.
Those were the first two things I ever went to, which are both awesome ways to get your start around live music.
Staying totally on brand too, the Ramones concert didn’t even happen because there was a riot.
My dad gave me some of the best advice I’ve ever gotten in my life because we were hiding off in a corner since there was a riot after they canceled the show. I said, “Dad, I want to see the riot.”
He said, “Son, you don’t watch a riot. You’re either in it or you get the heck out of the way.”
Mike: That is actually really good advice.
Randy: Maybe the only good advice my dad ever gave me, but it was some good advice.
Mike: Exactly.
I’m curious though, because you obviously got into live music at a very early age, but was there a point in time when you realized that you wanted to get into management specifically?
Randy: No, and I’ll keep the story short because I’ve told it a handful of times.
The short version is that I was a talent agent as my first job and interned in a bunch of different areas that ended up being the pathway to the first job I could have in the business.
The agency I was at kind of collapsed. I was the agent for a band called Pilfers, this reggae-ska-punk band.
As the company collapsed, I told the lead singer, who was this older Jamaican dude who I loved, “I can’t be your agent anymore. I’m sorry, but I’m out.”
He turned to me and said, “No, now you are the manager. Your first job is to get an agent.”
That’s how I became a manager.
It was not something that was on the roadmap of where I wanted to go or what I wanted to have happen.
Every once in a while, I still run into him, and every time I see him, he has a huge smile on his face. He says, “I told you, you’re a manager.”
He’s right. I give him full credit, but there was no plan to be a manager.
Mike: That’s really interesting because there’s one thing where somebody thrusts you into the position, but there’s another thing to then own that position.
What do you feel were the attributes that helped you have such a long career in management specifically?
Randy: I think a lot of it is communication and empathy.
You obviously have to have a business mind as well, but it’s understanding what’s driving people to think a certain way and trying to understand why their motivations may actually be damaging themselves.
A lot of times it’s convincing them that their idea, which may sound good on the surface, is really a bad idea.
That’s where empathy comes into it. I get wanting to burn bridges, give the middle finger, and run.
But there are reasons sometimes why you need to be strategic and walk away slowly. Let the bridge collapse without letting anyone know that you helped it collapse versus bombing it.
You can still achieve the same goals, but do it differently.
Mike: I love how you position that because as an artist manager myself, it’s very challenging to have that balance where your job is to look out for your artist’s best interests.
Sometimes that’s difficult because you don’t want to impede on their artistic vision. But sometimes, as you mentioned, the artistic vision can actually hinder or hurt them.
It’s hard to come in and say, “This might not necessarily be a good idea for these reasons.”
For an artist, that’s sometimes hard to take in too, because they wonder if you’re trying to hinder their creativity or stop them from doing what they believe in, when really you’re trying to keep them safe.
Randy: Yeah, and the key thing is not to have an ego with it.
I’ll give a great example. I managed a band called The Starting Line for many years.
I’ll never forget this meeting we had sitting on a bench in front of either Geffen or MCA Records. The label was trying to force down their throat a big-name producer at the time.
I want to say it was Neil Avron, who had just done Yellowcard and Fall Out Boy.
The band was passionate that they wanted to go with more of a cooler indie producer vibe and didn’t want to be forced into doing what the label thought was right.
I sat with them and said, “If you want radio hits and all these bigger successes, you should probably follow the advice of the label and work with the people who deliver that.”
“But if your goal is to stay 100 percent true to your art with no compromise, then follow the path that you want.”
I still remember sitting there and saying, “You could be the next MXPX, or you could be the next Fall Out Boy. It’s your choice.”
“Whichever path you choose, I’m going to respect it and support it.”
“But decisions like this in this moment will dictate where you go next.”
The important thing is that as a manager, regardless of which path they choose, you can’t come back later and say, “I told you so.”
Randy: And whichever path they choose, you can’t suddenly come back later and say, “I told you so.”
You can’t say, “Look, you thought you were going to have this, and now you got that.” If they choose one path, you have to support that path.
If they want to be the next Fall Out Boy, support that. If they want to be the next indie band with a cult following, support that too.
Your job is to help them get where they want to go—not where you want them to go.
Mike: That’s such a great point because it’s easy to project your own goals onto somebody else.
Randy: Exactly. And sometimes your artist’s goals evolve too.
There are times where somebody starts off wanting fame, money, and the biggest career possible. Then later they realize they’d rather have balance, a family, or more control over their art.
The goals can change, and you have to be willing to adapt with them.
Mike: I think that’s something people outside the music industry don’t always understand. Success can look very different depending on the artist.
Randy: Completely.
For some artists, success is playing arenas. For others, it’s making a living doing what they love without sacrificing who they are.
There’s no right answer.
Mike: I also think a lot of managers struggle with stepping away when it’s time.
Randy: Yeah, and that’s one of the hardest things.
There have been times where I’ve realized that maybe I’m no longer the best person for the job.
At that point, the question becomes: who can lead and get the trust and respect from everyone involved? Because that’s what the artist needs.
I’ve brainstormed with bands about who that person could be. I’ve set up meetings for them with other managers. I didn’t just say, “I’m out. This isn’t working anymore.”
I tried to be part of the replacement.
Using the corporation analogy, sometimes the board decides it’s time for a new CEO. Sometimes the CEO decides it’s time for a change.
But they don’t throw up middle fingers and say, “Screw you.” Most of the time, they work together.
When we found the replacement, we agreed they would come in at the beginning of the next year. I worked through the end of the year and helped with the transition.
The last show I managed for them was one of their holiday shows in late December.
I still remember most of us walking out of the club together at the end of the night. We were some of the last people there.
It was almost like a scene from a movie. We said goodbye, gave each other hugs, got into our cars, and drove away.
It wasn’t everybody, but it was the core group of people who had spent the most time together over the years.
There was no ill will.
It was just, “All right, we’re done.”
And honestly, it was great.
It doesn’t have to be ego. Everything isn’t always somebody’s fault.
Sometimes life evolves.
To be honest, these things hurt. You can probably even hear it in my voice—I’m sad about some of these things.
I’m not happy they happened.
But we can spend our lives blaming people and staying angry, or we can be thankful for the amazing things we did together and learn from the things that didn’t work.
Mike: Absolutely. I do want to ask you, kind of switching it up a little bit, do you have a favorite moment that stands out?
Randy: Probably my favorite moment is, oddly enough, one of the moments where I was also the most angry.
There was a festival called Skate and Surf Festival in New Jersey. It was kind of the precursor to Bamboozle.
A lot of the same people who later did Bamboozle also did Skate and Surf.
The Starting Line were headlining one of the nights there.
There were somewhere between 5,000 and 7,000 people in the room singing along to every word.
At that point, the band just kept getting bigger and bigger, and in a lot of ways, that felt like the peak moment.
It was amazing.
But much like their career, the amazing moment got interrupted by some outside force that had nothing to do with the band.
In this case, the venue decided for some reason that the show was over in the middle of the set.
Randy: The venue literally turned on the lights and cut the power in the middle of the set.
The band walked off stage furious. I was furious. The fans were furious.
It was one of those moments where you realize just how much a band means to people because everybody in that room was devastated.
At the same time, it was kind of beautiful because you could see how connected everybody was.
People were singing the songs without amplification. They were chanting for the band to come back.
It was chaos, but it was also this reminder of why we do any of this.
Those are the moments that stay with you.
Mike: That’s such an interesting answer because it’s not necessarily the perfect moment. It’s almost more memorable because something went wrong.
Randy: Exactly.
Perfect moments are great, but they almost feel fake sometimes.
The moments where something goes wrong, but everybody rallies together, are the moments that feel the most real.
Mike: I also wanted to ask you because you’ve worked with so many different artists and different eras of the industry.
What do you feel has changed the most about the music industry?
Randy: Access.
Everybody has access now.
That’s both the best thing and the worst thing.
When I was younger, if you wanted to put out a record, go on tour, or get press, there were gatekeepers.
You needed labels, publicists, booking agents, distributors, and all of these people to say yes.
Now, anybody can upload a song, build a social media following, and create a career.
That’s beautiful.
At the same time, because everyone has access, there’s more noise than ever before.
It’s harder to stand out.
I also think people sometimes underestimate how much work goes into building something sustainable.
There’s this idea that somebody can go viral overnight and suddenly have a career.
That does happen, but what usually happens is they go viral and then disappear.
The people who last are the ones who build community, relationships, and trust over time.
Mike: I think that’s a really important distinction because people see the viral moment, but they don’t always see the years of work leading up to it.
Randy: Totally.
Most overnight successes took ten years.
Mike: Exactly.
Randy: And even when somebody does blow up quickly, they still need the right team around them.
They need people who can help them make smart decisions, pace themselves, and avoid burning out.
Because if you suddenly go from playing clubs to having millions of followers overnight, that can really mess with your head.
Mike: Especially now where so much of an artist’s life is public.
Randy: Yeah, and I think people forget that artists are still people.
They’re not content machines.
They’re not robots.
They’re people who are trying to make art, have relationships, take care of themselves, and figure out life at the same time.
The pressure on artists now is insane.
Not only do they have to make music, but they also have to be a content creator, an influencer, a brand, and a business.
That’s exhausting.
Mike: I think a lot of artists feel like if they’re not constantly posting, they’re disappearing.
Randy: Exactly, and that mindset is dangerous.
You have to find a way to make content creation sustainable.
Otherwise, you’re going to burn out and start resenting the very thing you used to love.
Mike: Before we wrap up, do you have any advice for artists or managers who are trying to navigate all of this?
Randy: I think the biggest advice is to define success for yourself.
Don’t let somebody else tell you what success is supposed to look like.
If your goal is to make a living and have a happy life while playing music, that’s enough.
If your goal is to headline arenas, that’s fine too.
But make sure it’s your dream and not somebody else’s.
The second thing is to build real relationships.
Treat people well.
The music industry is a lot smaller than people think.
People remember how you make them feel.
And if you’re good to people, that comes back around.
Mike: I love that.
Thank you again so much for doing this.
Randy: Absolutely. Thanks for having me.