No Response Is NOT a Response (Steff Agathis from Vitalize Records)
Also available on: Apple Podcasts · Spotify
Music manager and founder of Vitalize Projects and Vitalize Records, Steff Agathis, talks about managing artists beginning at 11 years old, building an artist-first company, and why persistence matters when creating opportunities. We also discuss trust, artist development and TikTok’s influence on the music industry.
Key Takeaways
Trust has to be earned over time. Artist management relationships can become incredibly personal, which makes clear expectations, contracts, and communication even more important.
Build around the person, not the platform. Not every artist wants to live on TikTok, and a good strategy should fit the creator rather than force every creator into the same playbook.
Hard work creates access to learning. Steff repeatedly put herself in situations where she could absorb knowledge from people more experienced than her, even when it took dozens of rejections to get there.
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Host: Michael Zimmerlich
Post-Production: EarthtoMoira
Music by: Daphne Greene
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Transcript:
Mike Zimmerlich: Hey Steff, how's it going?
Steff Agathis: Good. How are you?
Mike Zimmerlich: I'm doing good, thanks. Thank you so much for being on the show. I really do appreciate it. I'm so excited to talk to you for so many different reasons.
I want to start off with one of the things I find very inspiring about your story in particular, basically building something of yourself that represents others. Someone who's done that for a very long time requires a lot of trust. I want to know from you what that word means to you when I say the word trust.
Steff Agathis: Yeah, it means a lot for me. I think even just in this industry, starting at a really young age, I always was giving myself to artists and really trusting them, and sometimes that wasn't fully reciprocated.
You kind of go through those situations, even in your personal life, where you feel like you really trust somebody and something happens, and you're just completely heartbroken by it.
Just kind of going through personal things in my life, trust has been something that is very important to me, especially with my artists. I wanna make sure that I'm there for them, even if it has nothing to do with work, even if I'm not managing them anymore. For me, it was very hard to find people that I truly trusted.
Working with Kenny Hamilton, he was someone that I really trusted and I really had a great relationship with, and I still do. Having that, especially in this industry, really goes a long way.
I try to be there for artists and even just be there for friends as well in a way that's always gonna be there forever, even in 10 years, 20 years. It's all just built off of trust and being able to trust each other, no matter what the situation is.
Mike Zimmerlich: I cannot agree with you more. It's really emotionally charging when you are having this kind of relationship. One of the things that I like to say often is that when you are representing somebody else's career, it's one of the most intimate partnerships you can have with somebody on a professional level.
The trust has to go both ways, right? They're entrusting you to take care of their career when you're representing them. You take care of their career, their music, whatever the case is, and you also have to instill the trust into them that they're going to do the things that they need to do on their end to be able to do the things that you need to take care of for them.
That's really hard to do, and I cannot express that enough. It's really hard to do. It is extremely rewarding when it works well, but it could also be so devastating and heartbreaking when it does not.
It's like going through a breakup, right? It's the same emotions when you go through a breakup when things do not work out.
Steff Agathis: Right.
Mike Zimmerlich: You go with the highs too, right? I know for myself, I always feel so motivated and elated when I get a win for them, and to see them grow into their own selves too. Because you're with them for a long period of time, and oftentimes you're talking to them almost every single day.
Steff Agathis: Right. You see them start from, some artists start where they're either really young or they're very premature in the sense of they may have never gone into sessions, and you see them starting to really grow into their own.
I think there's nothing more rewarding than growing with them. Again, when there is a situation where that trust is broken, it's extremely heartbreaking.
Mike Zimmerlich: Now I want to put into some context here on some other things, which is you mentioned before about having trust in you. You, from what I understand, started working with artists when you were 11 years old. Is that correct?
Steff Agathis: Yes. I started managing five artists when I was 11.
Mike Zimmerlich: I mean, I remember watching Saturday morning cartoons when I'm 11 years old, and you're out there managing artists. How did that happen?
Steff Agathis: It all started when I was 10 years old. Mind you, I was a very old soul as a kid, so I thought by the time I was 15 I should have a house, and by the time I'm 20, I should be... I was very like, "Oh my God, time is working against me. I have to get everything going."
I was 10 years old and I had gone to a Disney, I think it was a Camp Rock concert, and I just fell in love with how all the fans were reacting. There were people screaming. There were people crying.
I was like, "What is this? Everyone's in a chokehold. This is crazy." The impact that music and artists, a tour, a show can have on someone, I was just beyond myself. I was like, "I wanna be a part of this. I don't know how. I definitely don't wanna be the artist, but I have to be a part of this somehow."
I came from a family where school was the thing. It's like, if you wanna be successful, you go to school. You get good grades. You keep your head down, and you do what you need to do. I was also not a school person either, so I was really trying to figure it out.
At 11, Instagram had just come out. I'm an hour away from New York, so I'm like, "Okay, I'm gonna start signing acts. I'm gonna get them signed to these labels, and I'm near New York, so I can commute. It's easy."
I started scouting artists through Instagram and through SoundCloud, and I just started getting on calls with them every day and giving them marketing rollouts.
I would say, "You should work with these brands, and you should go to this press, and this should be the focus single, and you should go to this person for the cover art, and these are the A&Rs at different labels you should connect with."
I watched a lot of different Complex Blueprint stories and then a lot of podcasts, and I would just sit there, take notes, and I was like, "All right, I think I got the layout."
And I just went in on it.
Mike Zimmerlich: Wow. While also going to school and doing homework and doing all those other things too on top of that.
Steff Agathis: Yes. During school I was always doing different rollouts and stuff, and my teachers were always like, "Why are you on your computer?" And I was like, "You wouldn't understand."
Mike Zimmerlich: I'm building my career for myself already at that point.
Steff Agathis: Literally.
Mike Zimmerlich: Can you tell me a lesson that you learned back then? Something that you didn't realize about how the industry worked, or something where you realized, "Oh, that's not how things go"?
Steff Agathis: Yeah. I think, for starters, contracts. That was the first time where they all wanted contracts, and I had no idea what a contract entailed, and I had no idea about the legalities and all that type of stuff. So definitely contracts.
I would say, honestly, that's where I learned trust because I worked with an artist for a very long time, and I grew with that artist. We were really building something special, and it just ended in complete turmoil.
That was the first time I was like, "These things happen," and it's like, how do you go on with it because you also have a personal relationship?
That was honestly the first start where I was like, I really have to learn who I work with, and I really have to learn when to give my trust to somebody and let that grow over time versus, because you have a friendship with somebody and because you wanna see them win so badly, not getting lost in that as well.
Mike Zimmerlich: Really glad that you brought that up, and that's something that is not discussed enough, the importance of agreements and contracts.
I like to say it's good for two reasons. One, of course, is to protect yourself, right? If things go wrong, or if there's a conflict, I won't say go wrong, I'll say if there's a conflict, you have something that is agreed upon in writing on how to resolve that conflict, whatever that conflict is.
That's number one. Number two, which they kind of go hand in hand, but it's also just as important, is that it establishes clear communication.
That's something that I try to explain. I have agreements even with my closest friends. If I'm working with them, we have some sort of agreement in place for that exact reason.
A contract is essentially a mutual understanding of what both parties are responsible for. If it's actually in writing, then there's something that's clear.
Otherwise, if it's not in writing, then the problem becomes, "Well, I thought you were going to do this," or, "I thought that you were going to be responsible for this." That actually in itself causes conflict, where if at least it was all established ahead of time, right?
It's funny because I ran an independent record label for about 18 years, and I think only once can I remember that I actually had to enforce the agreement. Only once in 18 years. Usually, most of the time I was able to resolve the conflicts outside of it.
But there are two quick stories I would like to tell really fast on contracts.
I learned that at an early age because when I was in high school, I had this project where basically we did yearbooks on DVDs. This dates me a lot, but we did yearbooks on DVD, and I made up a contract that I had the television station for the high school sign so we could get access to the footage.
Apparently that teacher was not supposed to be able to do that, and the assistant principal was going to prevent us from making this project, which was our capstone. We would've failed the class if they basically denied us.
I remember going into the assistant principal's office, and there was a teacher, the assistant principal, and then I saw literally on his desk the contract that we signed. I was 18 at the time too. They went, "Well, it's legally binding, so..."
Steff Agathis: Yeah. Oh.
Mike Zimmerlich: He just looked at me and went, "Yeah, you're good," and just let me go.
Protection, that's a big one. Then the other thing, like I said, is clear communication.
I had one of the first bands that I ever had on the label, I also started managing, and they mentioned that they had a prior manager, which was fine. I asked them, "Is everything cool with them?" They said, "Yeah, absolutely. Everything's cool."
There was a time where there was a potential opportunity, and they mentioned that their previous manager had the contact for that opportunity. I said, "Is it okay to reach out?" They said, "Yeah."
So I reached out to this person, and that person came back to me and was very nice about it, but he said, "Hey, I'm not sure what's going on, but I'm still under contract with this band."
I went back to the band and told them, "Hey, what's going on? He says you guys are still under agreement."
They go, "No, he's not. He's not our manager anymore."
I said, "He says he has an agreement with you guys."
They go, "Yeah, no. That agreement's canceled."
I said, "Why?"
They said, "Well, he hasn't done anything."
I'm like, "That's not... That doesn't mean..."
Steff Agathis: Oh God.
Mike Zimmerlich: Right? You see where this is going. I asked them, "Can I see the agreement?"
They said, "We don't have it."
So they didn't have a copy of the contract.
Steff Agathis: Oh my...
Mike Zimmerlich: Again, clear communication. You have to make sure that both sides have copies of the agreement.
Then on top of that, are you making sure that everyone understands what those responsibilities are? Just because you have the assumption that somebody else is supposed to do something, if that's not in the agreement, they may be assuming something completely separate from that and that this is actually what their responsibilities are.
Again, that's why contracts are so important.
Steff Agathis: Yes. Yeah, they really are.
Mike Zimmerlich: Okay, so learning how to do agreements is so important. Then you launched your own company in 2024 called Vitalize Projects.
I assume probably at this point you realized, "Okay, I've been doing this for a while now. I want to start taking this a little bit more seriously." Is that why you decided to start your own company?
Steff Agathis: Yeah, I think it was a mix of that. I think also through those couple of years, there were different artist projects that I was working on, and I just had these different ideas where I felt like maybe the other labels or managements that I was working with on those artist projects weren't understanding.
There was a part of me that was like, "If every idea I'm gonna give is gonna be dismissed, I have to go and do this for myself and try it out and see what ends up happening."
Mike Zimmerlich: Absolutely. I do wanna mention a couple things too. You launched your own company, and I would assume probably during this time, and probably maybe a little bit beforehand, you have done so many accomplishments.
I have to say, I'm definitely very, I don't wanna say the word jealous, but very envious. I'll put it that way. Very envious of your accomplishments because, again, I know how hard this is to do.
You have done major sync placements. I think Bravo was one of them, if I remember correctly. Major sync placements, PR and media, including the CMA Awards. You've also done so many accomplishments and milestones within digital marketing as well.
Each one of those are inherently different roles that you were able to make significant progress in for your artists.
I'd love to learn more about that. Did you just apply the same drive and methods through each one? Did you shift your role where, okay, right now I'm focusing on sync, and then I'm shifting over to digital marketing? Or is it all at the same time?
Steff Agathis: Each thing that I did was with a different artist. The CMAs were with Asher. The sync placement was actually with the first artist I signed to Vitalize Projects, who was a DJ. His name was Blueprint at the time.
Every single thing was very different. I think, yeah, it was a lot of drive, but I think for me it was sitting down with the artist and being like, "Where do you need to go, and what things do I need to help you do that are gonna help grow you in whatever project that is?"
Even with the sync placement on Bravo, how that kind of came to be was he was releasing a lot of different dance records. At the time, I was not too familiar with the tech house world, but I was familiar with, okay, how do we break a dance record? How do we put it in ways that people are gonna listen and it's not just thrown in their face?
That was the idea. Okay, reality shows have dance songs playing all the time. Why don't we figure it out?
It really was, I would have these ideas of where we should take a project or a song or an artist, and I would go to the artist and say, "Are you cool with this?" Then I would just hit the ground running and do whatever I needed to do to make it work, whether it was calling people or just sending so many follow-up emails like, "How can we get this done?"
It was really just what the artist needed. I was gonna do it, regardless if it was marketing or PR or whatever. Whatever hat needed to be worn, I was gonna do it.
Mike Zimmerlich: Talk a little bit more about the outreach process. You don't necessarily have to provide specifics, but how did you go about doing that? How did you find the contacts? How were you reaching out to them?
Steff Agathis: I think for me, I would contact a couple of people that I knew first and would kind of say, "How does this process work?"
Especially with the CMAs, I'd never outreached for a red carpet. I really honestly had no expectations. I thought it was just gonna go to spam, and that was gonna be the end of it.
It was a lot of learning from people that have done it and just kind of hearing their perspective, and then just drafting an email, figuring out how it works, and a lot of follow-ups.
A lot of follow-ups.
I mean, a lot of people hated my follow-ups. I think half the industry hates my follow-ups. They've probably gotten like 20 follow-ups.
But I think for me, that's really what it boiled down to. I didn't care if I had to follow up a million times. I'm someone who, I know a lot of people say no response is a response, but for me, I'm like, no response is not a response.
If you're not gonna do something, that's fine, but just let me know.
For me, when it comes to my artists, I will just go at it and send follow-ups like there's no tomorrow. I think that was probably the biggest thing for my outreach, just my constant follow-ups.
Mike Zimmerlich: I appreciate that you mentioned that. No response is no response.
There could be 10 billion reasons why somebody did not respond to you. It could've been that it went to their spam box and they never got it. It could be that they had 100, 200 more emails ahead of yours that they were still trying to filter through, which is usually actually the case, right?
They didn't even get a chance to see the email itself. Or maybe they did find the email and they were intending on responding back, but they forgot to because they got distracted by something else, which also happens quite often in this industry.
So a no response is a no response. It's not a no.
Until you get a response, then it's either a yes or a no or not right now. Those are the three areas.
I'm curious though on your follow-ups. What's your frequency on follow-ups? Do you do weekly? Do you do monthly? Do you change it up?
Steff Agathis: I do weekly. Sometimes, after the initial one, if I see, for example, the CMAs, I reached out months in advance. But when I started seeing all the announcements of who's on the performance and all that type of stuff, then I would start doing it weekly to be like, "Okay, I need to stay on top of this."
So definitely weekly, but sometimes it's like three or four days and I have to follow up.
Mike Zimmerlich: It definitely depends upon the urgency, right? That's a big part of it.
If it's something that is very time-sensitive, then at least I don't feel as guilty reaching out a little bit more frequently if I know that the window of opportunity is small.
If it's a larger window or there is no window specifically and it's just an overall opportunity you're trying to secure, maybe I'll spread those out a little bit more.
But if it's something that's urgent, it's, "Hey, don't forget about me," kind of tapping on the door.
Steff Agathis: Yeah.
Mike Zimmerlich: You talked before, and I appreciate the fact that you mentioned that you reached out to people that you already knew about how to do certain things. How did you get in touch with those people?
Steff Agathis: A lot of times I deferred to people I used to work with. I would just kind of call them up and be like, "Hey, I'm trying to do this. What do you think? Do you know the process?"
A lot of the times I do call up Kenny Hamilton. I'm always calling him up. He's just a great mentor and a great friend, and he'll always be honest, where he's like, "Don't send a follow-up," or, "Don't do that."
Typically I just call them up and I'm like, "How does this work? Do you know someone there? What title do you reach out to?" Then from there I just go at it.
Mike Zimmerlich: I'm curious, when you first started, let's go back for a second to when you were 11, 12, starting this out, and you knew nobody.
I wanna do this from the perspective of, "I really would like to do this. I'm a musician myself. I want to be an artist manager. I want to start my own label, but I have no relationships or connections to the music industry at all."
How do you start?
Steff Agathis: I was blocked a lot of times. I was the person and the kid that was begging people to give me a shot.
I was like, "I don't care if I have to get your coffee. I don't care if I have to take the garbage out. I don't care if you want me to just clean the office. Just let me sit in on the meetings. Just let me learn and absorb."
A lot of the times it was just reaching out to people through DMs, and a lot of people were like, "Leave me alone."
A lot of great people gave me a shot and were like, "Send me different artists that you think are blowing up on SoundCloud," and all that type of stuff.
I would say I really was just begging people to give me a shot. Like, I don't know everything, but I just wanna sit and learn from everyone and learn from calls and all that type of stuff.
I was also someone who wasn't afraid of hard work. I would stay up 24 hours.
I remember at one point I had an internship while I was still in high school, and it was in California. I used to stay up until like 4:00 in the morning, and I would set alarm clocks to wake up at 1:00 or 2:00 AM to get on the Zoom calls with the whole team and everything.
I'm not afraid of hard work, so for me it was like I didn't care if there was no payment, no nothing. If I was just able to learn from people who know more than me and are succeeding at it, that was just the dream of it.
Mike Zimmerlich: I appreciate that discipline. I'm curious, on average, how many "go aways" did you get in comparison to people who said, "Yes, I will help you"? How many of those go aways would you need to get before you got the yeses?
Steff Agathis: It was probably like 50 or 75. It was a lot. It was a lot of people.
What I didn't understand was, yes, I was like 11, 12, 13, so I definitely did not understand the industry conversations and norms and stuff.
But it was weird because I think a lot of people had a lot of ego at the time, where they were like, "I don't need to hear different ideas. I don't need to hear what artists you like. I know what I'm doing."
I'm grateful that it didn't work out with those people, and it led me to the people that wanted to give me a shot and everything.
But it was a lot of nos. It was a lot, a lot, a lot of nos.
Mike Zimmerlich: It sounds like you handle rejection fairly well, or at least I'm going to make that assumption.
Steff Agathis: At a young age I tried to brainwash myself. Every no I would get, I would secretly be really upset, but I had to just convince myself, okay, someone's gonna give me a shot.
I tried to train myself that every rejection that came, I was like, okay, something good has to happen.
Mike Zimmerlich: Are you inherently a curious person? Because it sounds like you just want to learn in general. "I want to absorb everything possible." Are you inherently a curious person?
Steff Agathis: Yeah. One hundred percent.
Mike Zimmerlich: I really do appreciate your honesty about rejection because I know how rejection can be really challenging and hard.
But that's why I also am glad that you mentioned that this is sometimes how many nos you have to go through in order to get to those yeses.
I do also want to state this too. At least from my personal experience, it doesn't matter what stage of a career somebody's at.
I've had people that are just starting out that will give you a no, and vice versa. People who have been doing it for decades on a very high, successful level, they'll be more than willing to give you their time.
In fact, I find that usually is more the case. If somebody who's actually been very successful in their career, they understand where you're coming from because they were at your point at some point in time as well.
They understand that and they want to give back. The other thing too is that they also understand the value of helping out people who are just getting started, because you don't know where that person's trajectory in their career is going to be in a year or two years or five years or 10 years down the road.
They're establishing that trust now because they're helping you out.
Steff Agathis: Right. Exactly.
Mike Zimmerlich: So you started the company, doing extremely well, and you just launched Vitalize Records. I also do wanna point out real quick that you made Forbes 30 Under 30, which, congratulations. That's a major feat.
Steff Agathis: Thank you.
Mike Zimmerlich: Congratulations on starting the label. I'm curious, why start a label?
This is coming from somebody who's run a label for a very long period of time, and I'm always curious because there are so many alternatives that are out there now for artists.
There are distributors that are doing responsibilities of what record labels have done. There are other companies that will just straight up look at your numbers and offer you advances, so you don't even need to rely on a label for advancements, for funding. There are marketing agencies that'll do the same type of role as what a label will do.
I'm curious why you decided at this point to have a label division of your company.
Steff Agathis: Even from a younger age, the label idea was definitely always something. I always figured that I would start in management, and once I felt like I accomplished a lot of management, it would be a conversation.
I also grew up playing drums. I taught myself how to play drums, and I was always kind of a music nerd. I just loved the making of a song, producers, hearing how people would write.
There were so many times where I would just sit in people's sessions and watch how a song was made. That whole process of an artist finding their sound is so important, and it's just such a beautiful process to see.
Throughout these past couple of years, I felt like labels were very focused on digital marketing and TikTok and content and everything, and some artists weren't treated with all the attention that they were promised in the beginning.
For me, in 2025 when we hit a lot of milestones on the management side, I figured there were a lot of artists that I was scouting that I wanted to help build their sound, and I knew it wasn't gonna be through the management side.
I figured, I'm gonna start a label, and I'm gonna figure this out. I just wanna be a part of great music and great artists, and I don't wanna just focus selectively on content or only digital marketing or only one specific thing.
I wanted to really apply everything I did from the management side and see how we could translate that into the label side.
Just to be a part of great music, that was the end game for me for the label side.
Mike Zimmerlich: That's amazing. Congratulations on that. That's really, really exciting.
Steff Agathis: Thank you.
Mike Zimmerlich: What do you look for in an artist when you're either scouting an artist or let's say an artist is coming to you saying, "I would love to be on Vitalize Records"? What are you looking for?
Steff Agathis: I think, for starters, whenever there's an artist that I get really excited about, it's really just my intuition.
I feel like if I hear a vocal or if I hear a song or if I see a performance, it's just a feeling I get where I'm like, "I'm really excited about this artist. I need to just get on a call and see what they're doing."
From there, it's all about alignment.
There have been tons of times where I've connected with artists where they have one idea of where they want their career to go, and I might have a completely different one.
It's really aligning on those conversations, in terms of personality too. That for me is most important, just making sure that we're aligned.
I always tell my artists, "I'm promising you that I will work 24 hours to make sure every goal you want to hit, I will be there to help you hit it."
I wanna make sure that when I work with artists, they have that same work ethic, they have that same excitement. It's not a pulling teeth situation where it's like, "Come on, go and do this," because it's not fun for either of us.
I want to work with artists who are just as excited as I am. It's like we just meet each other's energy and we're aligned on everything.
Mike Zimmerlich: Which is also very challenging to do. That's a very challenging thing because even when you have those initial conversations of alignment, that alignment may need some adjustments as you go.
Steff Agathis: Right.
Mike Zimmerlich: Just like any relationship, right? It's having those check-ins going, "Okay, is everyone still on the same page? Is everyone satisfied with the direction that we're going into? Is there anything that we're missing here? Is there anything that you thought was going to happen that didn't yet?"
There's a lot of that that has to happen too, having that constant communication and constant open communication. That's not easy. It's really, really hard to do.
Steff Agathis: Yeah.
Mike Zimmerlich: I appreciate and respect that what you said is first. It's not even about the numbers. I just wanna make sure that's also clear. It's not just about the numbers.
Steff Agathis: No.
Mike Zimmerlich: It's about the chemistry. It's about having that alignment, that we both have the same vision in mind as far as what this project's going to be, and we're both invested and excited about it.
Steff Agathis: Right. I'm definitely not someone who looks at artists because they're either trending, they have a million followers, they're having a viral moment.
I actually really honestly don't care about that, because I'm a firm believer that great music will always find its way to an audience. It's just about connecting with the person, because you can always build around that.
I'm not someone who's tracking the streams and is like, "Oh my God, they're on New Music Friday, I have to sign them."
My job is to help get the artist on New Music Friday, not just to find them while they're blowing up and then be a part in that. That's not my thing.
Mike Zimmerlich: There's some terminology that goes around quite a bit, an artist-first perspective. That's very much how I am too, making sure that the priority is on the artist.
We are there to serve the artist, and our goal is to make it as seamless as possible for them and making sure that they know that we are in their corner, we're there to support them.
We have a job to do, but we are there to support their career however that needs to be done.
Steff Agathis: Right. For me, it's the same thing.
I always say the artist is the CEO, and we're either the partners or the COO. Whatever the artist wants, whatever goals they want, we're here to bring value and to bring opportunities.
We're not here to tell them, "Oh, this content does really well. You should do whatever."
There are artists that I work with where they might not want to be posting on TikTok every day. I'm not against TikTok. I think it's a tool. It's for free. Why not use it? But I think it's just working with the artist and compromising with them.
Some prefer to do live shows and live pop-ups and everything.
When I connect with artists, it's very much similar. We've known what we wanted to do from a young age. For me to work with artists, that's the dream, and it's a never-ending dream getting to work with all these different artists.
What they feel strongly about and how they wanna move their career, I'm not here to tell them, "No, you can't," or, "Yes, you can."
I'm here to be like, "Okay, let's do it. Let's go for it, and if something happens, we'll pivot and we'll try something else."
It really is like they come in, they know what they wanna do, and even if they need help, I've worked with artists where they think they wanna start in one genre. We set up sessions, and they're like, "That's so not me. I wanna go completely different."
We're here to help them and help grow their careers. We're not here to tell them what to do.
Really honestly, a big focus on my end also is mental health, to make sure that the artists are okay. Even if they're thriving, even if they're in sessions, no matter what the situation is, it's checking up on them as humans as well because they are humans.
In the industry, there aren't a lot of times where people will genuinely check in on their artists and will maybe have to cancel some important things because the artist needs that time.
But it's my job to make sure that the artist is okay. Even if that means delaying something because they need time, that's just my job, to protect them.
Mike Zimmerlich: I appreciate you mentioned protecting them. That's a big part of the role too, to protect them.
I also appreciate the fact that you mentioned mental health, which I'm also a very big believer in.
Somebody mentioned before, I actually had a guest on the show, and they mentioned managers basically being unofficial therapists. I'm like, "Yep, that's kind of..."
Steff Agathis: No, they are. They are. I've learned so much, like how to deal with my own anxiety. I'm like, "Okay, wait. I've done this for this person. I think I can handle it myself."
Mike Zimmerlich: Right? Exactly.
I've learned so much about mental health because of working with artists and, again, just making sure that they're being protected and that their well-being is looked after.
It's also a delicate balance, right? Because you mentioned before, you can't force them to do something they don't want to do.
Even if you tried, believe me, that will end in failure because if they are successful there, they're gonna hate doing it. Then it becomes self-fulfilling that it's going to fail because of that reason.
But at the same token, sometimes they need a little bit of a push too. Sometimes they just need a little bit of a kick and going, "You'll be fine. Just do the thing. You'll be fine."
Steff Agathis: It's knowing that balance where it's like they don't wanna do it because they're just like, "Eh, I'm not feeling it," versus, okay, you know that they should just not be doing it.
It's definitely that fine balance of giving them the right push, but also knowing if it's the right time to give them that push.
Mike Zimmerlich: Exactly. Timing is a big, big, big part of it.
You really have to assess where their mindset is at. You may not always know, but something that you should always be aware of is, okay, are they going through a personal issue of some sort? Or are they just unsure about doing something that they're uncomfortable about doing?
There is a very big difference between those things.
They might be dealing with depression or anxiety, and this is just adding to it, in comparison to, this is something that I am unsure about because I've never done it before, and I'm concerned about how it'd be perceived, or whatever the case might be.
In that scenario, sometimes it's just giving them that little, I like to say kick, but a little pep talk. A little bit of encouragement. Sometimes I call it tough love.
Once in a blue moon, you have to give them a little bit of tough love and be like, "No, you gotta..."
It comes down to that work ethic. If this is what you want, this is the career that you want to pursue and have, there are some things that you may not want to do but have to be done.
You have to learn how to accomplish that.
That's not deterring from mental health. That is just, this is the work. This is part of the job.
Steff Agathis: Right. Exactly. One hundred percent.
Mike Zimmerlich: It's interesting these days because one of the things that has been talked about recently is about artist development and that there is no artist development anymore.
Do you feel that's the case, or do you feel that it's just changing where that development is happening?
Steff Agathis: I think it's a little bit of both.
I think in the beginning of 2020, when there weren't as many independent labels and all the majors were still, that's where you wanted to get signed to, I think they started kind of segueing into more digital marketing and data focus and everything, and I think it's starting to increase there.
I think there are a lot more independent labels or artists building their own labels with their own team where they're able to structure their development.
I really just think it's the setup, but I would definitely say there are a lot more independent labels that are starting to focus, like genre focus on development, that are starting to come up a little bit more.
Mike Zimmerlich: I find it kind of interesting. Again, I also find that there are so many non-traditional methods that artists can go through.
There are so many resources that are out there now, even just looking at YouTube or podcasts or anything along those lines that you can utilize yourself to help develop.
Everyone's different, right? Some artists, they can watch YouTube videos all day and take something from it. Some others need more hand-holding, where they need either a coach or consultant or a manager or somebody that's going to help guide them through that process.
Everyone's different as far as how they're able to learn and how they are able to execute on those things themselves.
Steff Agathis: Right. Exactly.
I think as the label's job, it's knowing what the artist needs. You can kind of get an idea if an artist is a little bit lost in finding their sound, and you should focus more on that versus posting unreleased clips on TikTok and seeing which one goes viral and then saying, "Okay, now you're in that genre. Now you gotta make 10 more songs similar to that."
I think it's all about the artist and what they really need from the label.
Mike Zimmerlich: What do you feel are the biggest challenges right now in the music industry?
Especially, you mentioned even from 2020 to now, things are changing on a regular basis in this industry right now. What do you feel are the biggest challenges being faced today in the music industry?
Steff Agathis: I would definitely say the dependency on TikTok plays into it a lot.
I think that translates in a lot of different sectors that people might not realize, whether it's interviews, radio play, editorial.
There are so many different times where artists release songs, and even if it's editorial outreach, they'll ask how many views it's doing on TikTok.
Again, I'm not against TikTok. I think it's a great tool, but I am a firm believer that you should also give great music a chance as well.
It shouldn't just be selectively based on how many likes.
There are great songs I've heard off of TikTok that have two likes, and there are great songs that I've heard that have two million likes.
I think it's just being able to balance out songs, not just because someone has a following or someone has X amount of views or whatever that is, that they're more deserving because someone who's been doing this for 10 years only has 500 followers.
I think it's just finding that balance of also being willing to work with those artists who might not have the tools to be an influencer or a persona on TikTok. Being able to work with them and find their niche of how they can engage with their fan base and how that can translate into streams.
Mike Zimmerlich: Do you feel there's going to be a new contender for attention coming down the pipeline?
The reason why I mention this is I agree with you on TikTok, and I've always been a big believer in this. When you have a platform this profound where it hits the cultural zeitgeist, which is what TikTok did, there's a certain point where culture is going to start changing, and the platform either has to adjust to the culture or becomes more like a utility.
Case in point, Instagram and Facebook.
When Facebook first came out, it was super popular because it was part of the culture. People were like, "Find me on Facebook. Facebook me." Nobody says that anymore.
Everyone's on Facebook because that's just the way everyone connects. Facebook now is a utility. Nobody talks about Facebook as culture. It's not a part of our identity anymore.
Same thing is true with Instagram. Instagram was originally meant for people to share images. How much of Instagram right now is focused on the images themselves? It's more about just keeping everyone updated with what's going on, right?
Steff Agathis: Right.
Mike Zimmerlich: The culture of Instagram has completely changed, again becoming more of a utility.
TikTok, though, is kind of interesting because, at least for myself, I haven't seen it get to that.
I can see culture starting to change from what TikTok was, but I don't see necessarily TikTok shifting into where that's the go-to for, let's say, short-form videos.
You have Instagram Reels, YouTube Shorts, Facebook Reels. You have all these other platforms that are doing things that are very similar to TikTok and also have a very large audience.
I'm curious where TikTok's gonna be sitting in all this.
Steff Agathis: I think TikTok's gonna be here for a while, unfortunately.
I think just because, even as simple as whether it's a meme or if it's a new song or if it's an influencer or if there's drama, even for myself, if someone sends me drama or something's happening, it's always a TikTok link.
It's never a website link or anything like that.
I think TikTok's hit such a hype where people have invested so much in this platform, and it's become the platform, that I think it would take like 10 years to go down.
But even then, I don't know, because look at technology. Look at AI music now taking over. I just think where the world is heading, everyone loves technology.
Unfortunately, I haven't spoken to someone who was like, "I hate TikTok because of the platform." Typically people will be like, "Oh, I don't like how people act on TikTok," or influencer culture and all that type of culture that comes out of TikTok.
But no one's actually hated the platform. I think as technology's rising, TikTok is definitely going to still be the "it" platform for a couple more years.
Mike Zimmerlich: Interesting. I don't think it's going away anytime soon, but I am kind of curious because there are so many others that are like that out there.
Once the shiny new object comes along the way, which there will be, there always is, is that going to take the attention away from TikTok?
I always like this as an example, MySpace. Right now, I feel what's happening with TikTok is it hit its saturation point, its top point. Unless it can maintain that level, if the new player in town comes around and takes that away from you, you'll have a MySpace situation all over again.
That's exactly what happened with MySpace.
MySpace was literally a culture-defining platform. Everyone was on MySpace. If you were not in the Top 8, you didn't exist, that kind of thing back in the day, right?
There literally was a thing called MySpace artists. Artists' entire presence was on MySpace entirely.
Steff Agathis: Right.
Mike Zimmerlich: When MySpace was no longer relevant, which didn't take that long, it took maybe three to five years after it hit its top point, it didn't take that long for all of a sudden it to become irrelevant.
All the artists that did not diversify and try to move their audience to another platform, they're gone. They literally stopped existing because their entire audience was gone because it was all on MySpace.
I'm not saying that TikTok is there yet or that it will be there, but by the same token, I haven't seen yet TikTok moving toward that type of thing where it's just as essential as being on Facebook or Instagram, which I think we just all are because everyone else is.
I don't see that yet. I don't see TikTok being, "I am on TikTok because everyone else is." It's just where everything is trending right now. That will stop being the case at some point.
Steff Agathis: Yeah.
When that happens, I'll definitely be curious how it's gonna translate into pop culture and everything else. I'm definitely curious to see how that one switches out.
Mike Zimmerlich: That's why it's also important to always keep in mind what is coming around the corner, and also not rely on just one platform.
Look what happened in the past year or two. We didn't even know if TikTok was going to be available in the United States. There was a chance that it wouldn't.
Steff Agathis: Exactly.
Mike Zimmerlich: Then all of a sudden your audience is just gone.
Steff Agathis: Yeah.
Mike Zimmerlich: TikTok's a big enough platform that chances are that was unlikely to happen, but it was getting to the point where there was a chance that could have happened. All of a sudden TikTok was banned in the U.S.
Steff Agathis: That was crazy.
Mike Zimmerlich: You just don't know. You have to sometimes think about it like, if a platform that you are nurturing just tomorrow shuts its doors for whatever reason...
Steff Agathis: Right. That's why you can't strictly depend on TikTok views and everything. You have to make sure that it's balanced out, whether it's through Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat, and everything.
It can't just be selectively one platform you're focusing on.
Mike Zimmerlich: Exactly.
All right, we can start wrapping things up here. I do have a couple fun questions for you.
The first question I have for you, and I think I already know the answer, but I do wanna ask this anyway, or I might ask you a different question.
What was the very first concert that you ever went to?
Steff Agathis: It was the Disney Camp Rock one.
Mike Zimmerlich: It was the Disney Camp Rock one. Okay, so you already answered that question.
I'll ask you one of my other questions. What is a go-to artist that you're currently listening to right now that is not an artist that you're representing?
Steff Agathis: I'm always listening to Avicii. I love Avicii or Red Hot Chili Peppers.
Mike Zimmerlich: Oh, yes. Big Chili Peppers fan.
Do you have a favorite album of theirs?
Steff Agathis: I like a bunch of different songs from different albums. I'm obsessed with "Dosed" and "Snow," and a couple of different records.
Mike Zimmerlich: That's my era too, because there's the super early era of the Chili Peppers, then there's the mid era, and then there's the current era.
A current era I would say is probably the album I'm With You to today. I'm With You, I love that album. That's actually my second favorite album of theirs.
My number one's By the Way, back in the early 2000s. I think I'm like you, where I usually like to cherry-pick songs that I really like.
By the Way is one of those that I can listen to start to finish. It's one of the very few that I'll listen to the album start to finish because it's that good.
I'm With You is pretty close to that too. That's also such a good album.
Have you ever gotten the chance to see the Chili Peppers live?
Steff Agathis: No, unfortunately not.
Mike Zimmerlich: I got to see them at the LA Staples Center with the I'm With You album. Floor seats. It was so good.
Steff Agathis: Oh, that must have been insane. I'm so jealous of that.
Mike Zimmerlich: Yeah, it was really cool. That's the only time I got to see them, but I was very happy I got to see them perform.
Steff Agathis: That is so cool.
Mike Zimmerlich: I'm trying to think of another good question for you then. Do you collect vinyl?
Steff Agathis: I used to, and then I lost all of them.
Mike Zimmerlich: You lost them?
Steff Agathis: Well, it wasn't old vinyl. I got a vinyl player and then I would buy them from Target, where it was trending artists or new artists and stuff. I think it was like 10 I had though.
It was Foo Fighters, Nirvana. I think it was Nirvana Unplugged, Machine Gun Kelly. Journey I think was in it. It was those commercial ones that you can buy.
Mike Zimmerlich: Very cool.
All right, well, last question for you. If you're only able to give one piece of advice, what would that one piece of advice be?
Steff Agathis: Don't be afraid of hard work. Don't be afraid of hard work.
I think a lot of people, and I've been there too, where it's like you work for a period of time, whether it's with a company or someone, and then you're like, "Okay, now what's..."
Don't be afraid to just work hard and absorb everything, and then when you feel that moment of, okay, you're ready to branch off.
But even if it takes a little bit longer to just learn from other people, do it. Don't just dive in and not know everything before doing it.
Mike Zimmerlich: I couldn't agree more. That's something that I have to keep on reminding myself.
I feel sometimes that I get so overwhelmed with things that need to be accomplished, and I almost feel like I'm kind of psyching myself out of it, if that makes sense.
It's like, "Oh, there's so much that needs to be done. If I try to do all these things, I'm going to have all this high anxiety, or I'm going to get burned out," or all these different types of things.
Then when I just kind of put my head to the ground and do it, I'm fine. Afterwards, I'm fine and actually feel proud and accomplished that I got all this work done.
Steff Agathis: Right. Exactly. One hundred percent.
Mike Zimmerlich: I totally agree with that.
Well, thank you, Steff, so much for being on the show. I really do appreciate it. We'll make sure that in the show notes are all links to Vitalize Projects as well as the record label.
Again, congratulations on launching the label. That's really, really exciting, and I wish you the best of luck moving forward.
Steff Agathis: Thank you so much. It was great being on your show. Thank you for having me.